Q: Are you sure Vedic Hindus are only Brahmins and not the upper caste Kshatriyas and Vanigas?
A: They are converts because it gave them validity in the caste-based society. Most, if not all of them would have no idea of what is in the Vedas. To make a simple analogy, our Christian friends parents converted some 200 years ago to overcome oppression. Folks that you mention (Kshatriyas and Vanigas) converted because the Kings converted. This took place in India during Gupta period 3rd/4th century CE. In Tamil Nadu, a few hundred years later, 5th/6th century CE. Folks who were outside the mainstream never converted, even now. They pray to their own gods, and continue as they did long ago. I took upon this research project about 15 years ago, and I visit rural areas to find out their worship models, and have spoken to many rural regions understand their beliefs - TN, Karnatka, Odisha, Maharashtra and Andhra. I will be doing this Punjab/Rajasthan and Gujarat in the next year or two.
Q: I have a question. When Sati was practiced did it apply to all hindu women who were widowed or only the harijans
A: Sati appears to be a Northern tradition that crept into the south. It was not forced, but voluntary. In the ancient Indian tradition, giving up one's life was considered "Holy". giving up one's head or part of a body to a deity or in prayers appears to have been a common phenomena. There sculptures of 7th/8th/9th century that validate this practice in the south; I have seen evidence of this Maharashtra also.
Q: So it is untrue when they say Hindus never converted any one. If the kings convert then the subjects especially the soldiers follow the king
A: I don't think it was a forced conversion as one finds in Islam. I think folks simply followed the leader somewhat similar to what Romans did after Constantine converted to Christianity. The key puzzle that I am still trying to figure out is how the Kings were converted. No documentary evidence exists as far as I know except the episode of Appar who "converted" Mahendra Pallavan who was of Jaina faith
Q: is it true that all low caste or casteless women were forced to be bare chested by hindu edicts? What Godly reasons did the Brahmins give to prevent Dalit women from covering their breasts
A: Yes! They were not allowed to cover their breasts. Read this, your blood would boil. These are accurate, not fake info.
Maanava Jeeva
Please click on above caption to read the article
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2487038388290488&set=gm.499875200661325&type=3&theater
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Q: Please explain why Bengalis worship Durga and Not Vishnu or Shiva ?
A: Excellent question. You are well on the way to discover the true Indian or Indians! A short answer is -- why do Tamils pray to Murugan when Murugan is absent in the North?. BTW, Murugan is not Skanda or Subramanya; that religious corruption took place during Bhakti period, about 5th-9th century CE. Now, back to Durga, the warrior-like female deity -- also Kottravai as noted in Tamil Sangam Literature -- is cherished by warriors as she ( in Tamil literature) is the ruling deity of the battlefield. Such deities predate the arrival of the Vedic people from Iran. So, Durga is a very ancient Goddess who is not found in the Rig veda. If you raise this to Hindu folks (Brahmins) they would say she is an avatar of Sakthi etc; that is baloney. If you travel into the interior of Odisha, you would find temples dedicated solely to Yoginis, another religion that has nothing to do with Vedic HInduism. That is another religion of ancient times, and predates the Vedic people.
Me: A few years back I was invited to a dinner party in Sydney by a Bengali couple. We were having our drinks and a little chit chat. I was the only Non Bong and I raised a question to the host. I said can you tell me why Bengalis don't name their sons Rama or Krishna? and I heard the stupidest response, he said "Oh Ram, in Bengal we only call our servants as Ram".
It was not said in jest. I could have punched him in the face but then the rest of the Bongs ate him alive anyway for insulting a guest and made him apologise to me. It was the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Never saw the man or his wife ever again.
Me: What is the difference between SC and ST and who scheduled them and why?
A- I think we have words in vernacular for this. Adivasi normally means something similar to 'tribal', while Harijan and Dalit are terms coined in recent years in order to abandon the use of the inhuman word 'achoot'.
Both categories are often clubbed together in statutes, because we (excepting the Hindutva brigade) acknowledge that Indian society in general is prejudiced against both of them, although for different reasons.
To take one narrow example, Dalits could traditionally own land in many places (not all) in India, but Adivasis do not believe (again, traditionally) in land ownership
It is true that about 15-16% of the country are born in Muslim families. But a far greater percentage is born in Adivasi, tribal, non caste and not upper caste families.
I have read a number of research papers on this issue, avoided popular press as they sometimes are inaccurate. The oppression by "caste", especially by Brahmins and upper caste Indians is absolutely due to the evil seeds sown by Manu Smriti. I have read the entire work some 10 years ago, the translated version.
We should probably, now that we've had Independence for 80 years, be thinking about that. So glad this CAA idiocy gives us an excuse to start talking seriously about the things that this independent country has not yet taken up as a mission.
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Me - Hey Learned one. Need your clarification on some doubts I have. I am doing some research on Dalits of India and was surprised to read about Dalit Muslims. I thought once you convert to Islam you shed the Dalit Tag? Do You believe in Upper caste and lower caste Muslim in Tamilnadu or Kerala ? Who is a Labbe Muslim ? Some clarification will help
I was sure you were not addressing me!
A tamilian Moslem is referred to as Labbe. Because some of them use Labbe as one of their names.
When Hindus convert to Christianity, Islam or even Buddhism, they tend to identify their cast for a few generations, about 3 to 5. The reason is that the caste system has been around for 2000 years, and it is difficult to shed it overnight.
The 3 to 5 generations applies to Christian converts from Hinduism. It could vary for Moslem and Buddhist converts.
It used to be that mostly Dalit Hindus converted to Christianity when British and US missionaries worked in India during British rule. There were exceptions. The Nadars of the south of TN were also converted during the 19th century, due to the efforts of Bishop Robert Caldwell.
The Nadars considered themselves much higher than Dalits due to their seizing educational and business opportunities. So when both Dalits and Nadars became Christians, the former Nadar Hindus refused to marry the former Dalit Hindus even though they were all Christians.
Indeed, Hindu-Nadars and Christian Nadars tended to inter-marry, the overriding bond being Nadar. However, because Christianity is egalatarian, the adherance to caste phases out over 3 to 5 generations. This has been the experience in my family and others, who converted 3 generations ago, even while living in India.
Education, industrialization and urbanization helps to eradicate the caste system, assisted by the nature of Christianity.
In India, there is a disturbing phenomena. The more educated/urbanized Hindus are (the middle to the upper castes) the stronger their adherance to the caste system. This is due to their vested interest in the perpetuation of this despicable and arbitrary stratification.
The caste system is perpetuated in India by the elders controlling the choice of marriage partners. That is why the caste system is still strong in rural India, where 70% of the people still reside.
In urban areas, and especially in the tech industry, the youngsters freely choose their own marriage partners, without any repraisals from the elders, unlike the villages.
To liberate the rural areas of India from the choke-hold of the caste system, youngsters should be encouraged to find their own marriage partners, after rendering the village elders/panchayats impotent thru' strong law enforcement. Indeed, forced marriages have to be banned in India.
Mao's first action in China was to ban forced marriages, thereby liberating China's youth.
Forced marriages is the tool used for the perpetuation of the caste system. Ban it and render the elders impotent, the caste system will vanish into the dust-bin of history within a couple of generations.
Thanks mate. Sorry I might have drifted a bit.
Since independence, most foreign missionaries have left India. The work of taking the gospel message to non- Christians has fallen to Indian Christians.
My cousin, after retiring as a pastor/preacher, became a missionary by joining an organization that took the gospel to non-Christians.
He has since 'retired' from this, and helps with office work, as age has slowed him down.
As a missionary he traveled to Gujarat, Haryana and Punjab.
During the past 20 to 30 years, Hindus from all castes and walks of life have embraced Christianity. They include Brahmins, other upper castes, Sikhs etc.
As for chaps being previously Brahmins, and calling themselves Brahmin Christians? I do not know. These gents are Goans, i.e., having Portugese and Indian ancestry. Are they claiming that their first ancestor who married a Portugese person was a Brahmin? What about subsequent marriages after the first Indian-Portugese union?
I think its BS.
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More Comments to the same question
Me - Hey Learned one. Need your clarification on some doubts I have. I am doing some research on Dalits of India and was surprised to read about Dalit Muslims and Dalit Christians. I thought once you convert to Christianity or Islam you shed the Dalit Tag? Do You believe in Upper caste and lower caste Christians/Muslim in Tamilnadu or Kerala ? Who is a Labbe Muslim ? Some clarification will help
A1-That's what the religions preach. But not so in practice. So now, amongst Christians, Muslims and even Sikhs, if a Dalit converts to one of these faiths, they are treated as Dalits. They even attend different churches. Religion is just hypocrisy.
A2-The caste tag is sickeningly sticky. Not just Muslims, even Christians cling to their castes. This is borne out by both Mangalorean and Goa Catholics, who chose to adopt this faith 500 years ago, together with name changes.
A3- That was the promise during conversion; but the converted continue to carry the caste label. Remember Daryl used to say he is a Brahmin Christian!
Me - Very Interesting had no clue and just got a reply from another IITM Buddy that two IITians Darel from Goa and Lobo from mangalore called themselves Brahmin Christians. I almost fell of the Chair. ....
A4 -Don't be surprised that it is the Brahmins who retain the tag. While the others (supported by the majority of the priesthood, who are part of the game, being the most educated, ie Brahmin) just take care to arrange marriages into 'suitable' families
A5 - I thought so too, but he openly said so in 2nd year. You remember Lobo? The tall guy. He also said he is a Brahmin Christian! The Caste is part of the Indian Genome! A pathetic state of mind that has infected almost all upper caste Indians. Is there any chance India will ever get out of this curse sown by Manu 2000 years ago?
A6 - Ram, I have always maintained that we confuse religion with culture. You may change religion, but culture is more difficult or sometimes people do not want to change from their own culture. Caste is culture.
This is true of Sikhs, Muslims, Christians etc who go to worship only with their own caste. Elections are fought among castes of the same religion.
Hindus and Sikhs marry each other from the same caste. Nadars, Christian and Hindu marry each other. Same Nadar families have members of both religions.
South India has castes, may not be four Varnas.
General term Dalits is applied to both SC & ST. There is nothing in common, except that they are listed as separate schedules in the constitution. STs are far better off, they have their own culture. Not only politically banded as SC. But also culturally. They have their own set up and are from the same geographical area. They have a sense of belonging.
The interesting thing is no caste considers themselves lower. No Dalit will be happy if his daughter marries a non dalit.
Labbe must be a lower caste muslim. I do not know.
Just like India, you can not generalise. Varies from area to area.
There are purely Dalit Churches, Dalit mosques all over the country. Purely an Indian innovation.
Hindus have much more diverse caste discrimination. They are the masters of Caste.
Gods, Godmen all have caste and bias among worshippers.
Hindus will literally pray to the Devil, if they can get some benefit. The temple to Duryodhana near Quilon is testimony.
A7 - There’s no caste system in Islam, Ram. Many keep to their traditional ways of thinking. In fact I do not agree to the having of sects in Islam. Like Sunni, Shia etc
A8- Shameless conduct of Hindu Community in discriminating against Dalits so much that they are lured into being Muslims, not knowing that Muslims too discriminate on the bases of caste. No high caste muslim would marry a Dalit Muslim.
In Pakistan, Dalit Muslims who migrated to Pakistan are most ill treated there and are called Mujahids and are highly discriminated community in Pakistan.
